INT: I'm conducting an interview with Biff Henderson for the Directors Guild of America's Visual History Program. We are at the DGA in New York.

BH: Ok. My name is Biff Henderson. It’s an honor to be here to be interviewed by Ms. Candy Martinez this morning. My birth name is James Jackson Henderson, Junior. My nickname, as I've indicated, is Biff. I was born October 2nd in Durham, North Carolina in the United States of America.

INT: Good morning on this beautiful day here in New York. Biff, thank you for being a part of our Visual History Program for the Guild. Would you just start by letting all of us know a little bit about your early life, education, ambitions, and then go on and tell us about some of your mentors, and how they influenced you? 

BH: Well thank you for having me, first of all. Yes, I was born in Durham, North Carolina. At an early age my parents were both teachers and corporate executives. My mother taught and also had a small insurance company, and my father was an executive with North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company in Durham, which at that time was probably the largest black owned and operated business in the world, from what I understand. I have a sister who's Anne Brockenborough, and she's... Anne Henderson-Brockenborough, and she still lives in North Carolina, in Cary, and she is a doctor. And I grew up in Durham, and was there straight through high school, and participated in sports in high school with, preferably concentrating on tennis to a large degree, but I played some of everything. And I had the opportunity in playing tennis to play with some pretty outstanding tennis players at the time. I played against and on a few occasions doubles with Arthur Ashe. If he was still living, he would be a year or so older than I am. But there were other great tennis players at the time, you know, things down South at the time were segregated, but it was under the definition of separate but equal, which meant that in Durham, for instance, they had the same amount of schools from elementary to high school, of both races, black and white. And so for as hotels were concerned, motels, I think there were three white, three black. Theaters, three white, three black, including drive-in theaters. One drive-in movie each. And so everything was separate except, you know, it wasn't a problem so far as going to any bank. You could go to any bank you wanted to go to, even though there were black, it was a black bank. So there were a lot of positive role models in my upbringing so far as people to look up to, both black and white when it came down to that. And so it was an interesting upbringing. It was not in a small town, but in a city where there was very low unemployment rate, because of the tobacco industry. And Duke University, North Carolina Central University. You know, it was… there was Duke, there was North Carolina Central, separate but equal. A lot of stuff like that. And then, at the end of high school, all during my high school year, not even high school, younger than that, not only in the tennis circuit, but I would go away to camp up in Massachusetts every summer. And so I had a very well-rounded life, you know, when it came down to that kind of stuff. Had some pretty positive role models in my family, not only my father, but uncles and aunts. I have an uncle who used to tell me a lot of interesting stories about his upbringing. His name was Wendell Smith. He was featured in the movie 42 as the journalist. He's in the Baseball Hall of Fame. So a lot of people--C.C. Spaulding [Charles Clinton Spaulding]. So, you know, I want to bring that out in some type of way because I always felt that I had to try to do something productive, whether it was in Durham or wherever.

BH: And after my high school days, I went to college, first at Tennessee State [Tennessee State University] in Nashville. I went to pre-college at Hampton University, and then to, in the fall, to Tennessee State on a tennis scholarship. And then I transferred back to Hampton after that and stayed there for four or five years, majored in business administration. And then at the end of Hampton, I took a job in Nashville with American Airlines for a moment, before having to report to active duty. I went to Vietnam, and then when I came back, and in Vietnam I was there for 13 and a half months from 1968 to 1969, I went over in October at the end of the Tet Offensive. And I ended up doing stuff that wasn't natural. I ended up in a place called Đông Hà, which was the last supply point north before you go into North Vietnam. And I was attached to an artillery battery. We ran patrols all over South Vietnam and along the DMZ, and in the North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodian border. And I was there for 13 and a half months. And that was an interesting time in my life because I had been to college, and so I was one of the older guys there in Vietnam. And when that ended, I came back and I went back to work for American Airlines in Nashville, and I was there maybe about five or six months before I came to New York on a job interview, in Rockefeller Center. I think--it was with Hearst. I really wanted that job. And this is back maybe in '69 [1969] or '70 [1970]. I thought, when I was leaving the interview, I really--this is back when there was no security, and you could just go in and out of buildings. And I had to go to the bathroom really, really bad. So I came out of the, walking down the corridor in 30 Rock [30 Rockefeller Plaza], and I asked someone where there was a men's room, and they said to go to the second floor, which I did. And went into the men's room and I'm finishing and washing my hands, and I hear this very distinguished voice behind me. "How are you today young man?" And I finished washing, and I said to myself, to him, I said, "I'm doing fine, sir," and I turned around and there was this gentleman there with a bowtie, and he said, "Well, where you from?" And I started talking to him, telling him what it was all about. "What brings you to NBC?" And I had no idea I was at NBC, no idea at all. I just had to go to the bathroom. And so we talked for about maybe five or 10 minutes, and by this time I realized that he was the custodian cleaning the bathroom, very distinguished, with his pan and his broom. And he wanted to introduce me to some people, which he did. Peter Tintele [PH], I think he was in charge of guest relations. Lloyd Semel [PH], who was in sales. And we eventually met this lady, Marion Stephenson, who at the time may have been the highest ranking female in broadcasting, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure she was. And she was president I think of NBC Sales, at least radio. And I talked to them for a few minutes or whatever amount of time it was, left and went back to Nashville, figuring that's the end of that, and never hear from them again. I left my resume with 'em, but lo and behold, out of nowhere I get a letter or a call, I think a letter, to come back to New York for an interview, which I did. And I came back, and they eventually hired me. And that was something else. And then... So I worked in sales for maybe six months, maybe a little longer, maybe a year or so. And after that I got into production, and started going from there.

INT: So you've described your life, though, as a combination of faith and destiny. And so, these are all of the things that would, you know, show, that your faith, you know--[BH: Oh absolutely.]--believing in faith and destiny, then took you all of those steps, right? 

BH: Absolutely, that's the way I look at the basic outcome of my life, has been faith and destiny. I'm a very spiritual and religious person. I was brought up that way, and I am. I have no doubt about that, that what has... I'm humble and what I've been blessed with is a result of that, basically faith and then destiny. And having to go to the bathroom, for whatever that's worth, you know. But absolutely. You know, I believe that what the mind can conceive, man can possibly achieve. But on the same account, I also feel that we basically may not be able to determine the direction of the wind, but we can adjust ourselves to get to our destination. [INT: Absolutely. So just going along that and being ready for whatever comes…]

INT: So with Marion Stephenson, why do you think that she suggested that you just follow through and go with that opportunity to get into sales? 'Cause... 

BH: Oh, I see what you're asking. Yeah, what happened was, at the time, they were basically starting to go into the overnight business in television, and if I recall correctly, I think most of the commercials and corporate sponsors on radio and television at the time, like if you saw a commercial on THE TODAY SHOW, you see the same company advertising maybe on THE TONIGHT SHOW, and you may hear it on the radio. And in sales, you kind of interacted with the talent in these things. Not necessarily television and much radio: Big Wilson, Soupy Sales, back in those days. They were wanting to go into the overnight business, and they had a team of people that they had put together. It's like a panel or something to see how they could come up with this stuff, and no one could come up with a plan. And I think one day in one of those meetings I just said something like, "I think you all should just give it away," and they thought I was crazy or something like that. And we were backed up against the wall; there was nothing on it that hour of the night. How do you get rid of this stuff? And I felt like maybe if six months free--six weeks free, I'm sorry. Six weeks free, and if they came on board with that, then after that maybe we could get the assurance of six months. The legal department signed off on it, I think Ms. Stephenson signed off on it, anybody else. Everybody thought it was a crazy idea, but from what I understand it worked. It actually worked. And most companies took, you know, ate it up and in the process, initially, they thought it was genius or something. But where's the money? There was no money. And you know, you signed off on this, and so let's wait and see. So it did eventually come around. And someone--and I think she made the comment to me, "Well, if you're that creative, then maybe you should go into production." And I looked at her, I said, "Oh well, okay. We'll try that." And then I, you know, went from there and went into the scheduling office, you know. [INT: Tech Ops?] Yeah, it was called TOPS, Technical Operations, where we scheduled, you know, all the technicians, engineers, Associate Directors, Stage Managers. Even overnight handled... there were film [patch change?] back then. You know, people that worked in the film, and then videotape came in. We used to handle all those schedules. And that was a rough job. That was probably the roughest job I've ever had in my life, because you were dealing with so many different egos and different people, which taught me a lot, you know. It brought me to the point of understanding that people are people, and still, you know, it's not, they're not right.

INT: And do you think that being in TOPS, working with all of the different people egos, did that kind of guide you or steer towards wanting to stage manage, or get into that area? 

BH: It did, it did. I became aware of different opportunities and positions and jobs in the production--anything, from you know, camera, audio, technical directing, to social directing, stage managing, even directing. And I wanted to find out what it was all about. I'm dealing directly with these people who were doing the work, so I'd ask them. But at the time, I thought stage managing would not only be fun, but dealing directly with talent, and I always looked at stage managing as the liaison basically between the Director and the talent, and to widen it out, even the Producers and the production team, and anybody else involved with the production. And that just seemed like a lot of fun, and a lot of responsibility, and it wasn't a job where you didn't have to think, and I liked that.

INT: And did you work on different kinds of shows? How did you start? Was it summer relief and you got in there? 

BH: Yeah. What they did, they had, at that time they had a program called vacation relief at NBC, and they… You know, destiny again. You never know… They had a program called vacation relief, and what you did basically was go around relieving people when they went on vacation on different shows that they worked on. And as a result, you got a touch of a lot of different variety type shows including sports. And if I recall correctly, the first summer I did that, I was basically assigned to the local news, and it was like the late shift, the six and the 11 o'clock news, which was great. And then occasionally I'd get a long day out of it, you know, maybe have to come in for something earlier. They had--and on the weekends, they had this thing called the Sunday Block, where they had four shows going on in one theater, I mean one studio. In each corner, like NOT FOR WOMEN ONLY with Barbara Walters, another one, and just four shows, so you did all four, and they were live. And from one half-hour to the next, and it was great. And when you don't, you know, it's a lot of pressure, you know, but I enjoyed it, you know, and I enjoyed it. And then, so that gave me some experience. I would go out to Brooklyn to work on soap operas; I worked on soap operas in Rockefeller Center, like THE DOCTORS. I remember Alec Baldwin when he was just a young kid starting out working on THE DOCTORS then. And Kathleen Turner and some others, and going to Brooklyn and working with different people. You know, that type of thing. You know, it's just, it was a lot of experience, and being nervous about it, and especially with things like sports, not knowing exactly what you were doing. And back then, so far as the stage managing job was concerned, which I'm sure you'll never see again, there weren't graphics. So in sports, especially like football, they had like three Stage Managers, one on the field, one in the booth directly with the talent, and a third one, which actually was on the phone with someone, and had to mark these cards and put 'em up on a easel so you could see the other scores of other games. And that was just intense. And nobody else, and being the low man on the totem pole, vacation relief, that was my job. And it was hard, you know, but I enjoyed it. And then after I was laid off the first time, I think, I went back to TOPS [Technical Operations], and I wasn't there long, and then they brought me back as a vacation relief, and eventually I was working THE TODAY SHOW, and I had been assigned--I was all over the place--space shuttles, you name it. It just goes on and on. If you ask me specifically, I probably worked on, you know, just so many things.

BH: But David Letterman came into NBC, with a morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW]. And the entire Crew, from cameras, everybody were vacation relief assigned to this show. And it was a lot of fun. It was bizarre. It was on live from 09:00 to 10:30 after THE TODAY SHOW every morning. And it lasted maybe about six months I think. And then they shut it down. And I was called into the office to say I was going to be laid off, which I was fine with; I was prepared for it. I don't want to forget to mention at this point, I was married, and there were kids on the way, and... You know, I had the responsibility of them. My wife, Carolyn Henderson, was a special ed teacher, so, you know, we had money coming in, you know, to survive. But whether this layoff thing would work or not, I didn't know, but we were willing to take the risk. So the manager in charge at NBC called me in at the time, just before Christmas--I'll never forget it--to tell me I was being laid off. And I said, "Okay, well you know, I expected that, no problem." He said, "Maybe we can get you back into TOPS, but I won't know for a week or so." And a week went by, so when he called me back in, and he said to me, "You know, not only are we gonna lay you off, but we've been overpaying you." And I said, "Oh really?" He said, "Yeah. Didn't you know you were getting paid?" I said, "I just thought it was a great job." You know? So they were paying me at the Director's level, which was wonderful. You know, I didn't know the difference. But he told me I'd have to pay all this money back. And I said, "Well, I don't know how I'm gonna do that, 'cause I don't have it." And they had a payback day system, where, you know, you work certain holidays, you got a day in the future, so I had all this going, and we worked it out. But in the process, faith and destiny. I'm supposed to be laid off, and they called me in to tell me that I would be made a permanent employee, and the main reason that came about was because of the Directors Guild. Their agreement with the three networks, ABC, NBC, and CBS, at the time, was that anybody that had a permanent assignment to certain jobs or shows for a certain amount of time had to be made a permanent employee. And there it is.

INT: Right, 'cause I wanted to ask you how all of these previous things, the VR [vacation relief] and stuff lead to joining the Guild. So it was because of our Guild contract, right? 

BH: Exactly. Permanent. I had to join the Guild to do the job in the first place, even as a vacation relief. So I was a member of the Guild, you know, I joined the Guild. But the permanent staff job came about as a result, yeah, of the Guild contract, which is wonderful. I didn't expect that, I mean, you know, it was a blessing. [INT: Faith and destiny.] And having to go to the bathroom. [INT: Yeah. Have you ever been able to reach out to that first gentleman that sort of started the whole ball rolling?] The janitor? The janitor? [INT: Yes.] You know, that's one thing that hurts me to a degree. I was never able to thank him the way I wanted to thank him, properly because... and I was thinking materialistically. I'd see him all the time, and we would talk occasionally. His name was Mr. Gene Sanders. He retired eventually, very distinguished I mean. He used to always say to people, "How you doing today, big time?" You know, stuff like that to different people. Anybody and everybody. Everybody knew him. Why me, I don't know. Anyway, I was never able to thank him the way I wanted to, but people have told me over the years, "Don't feel bad about that, because you didn't embarrass him. You went ahead and you did what you had to do." And so, you know, it wasn't like his recommendation went… I said, "If you want to look at it that way, I would have loved to have…” So I don't even know, I hope wherever he is, and I'm sure he's fine wherever he is, that he's okay and that somebody in his family one day sees this and will appreciate it because of the fact he is the reason that I am, he's the first reason that I am in this business and in this position. [INT: Oh, thank you so much for, you know, letting him and us know how we're all here for each other.]

INT: But now that brings us up to like your David Letterman years. Now you first said, the first, you know, was the vacation, the summer show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW] for six months. [BH: I think it was six months, yeah.] Okay, so what were some of the qualities that you and David kinda saw in each other at that point? What was it like working with him? 

BH: Oh I see. Well, understand now, don't forget I was assigned to the show initially. And what... I was familiar with David Letterman. I'd heard his name, I probably had seen him on THE TONIGHT SHOW [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON], but I didn't really know him. So everything that we taking this conversation to next is a result of David Letterman, and all that I have now is thanks to David Letterman, okay? Basically. I mean, really, truly. We started working together. I was a Stage Manager backstage, and so I was the one that saw--he would come out and say, you know, warm up the audience for a couple of minutes every day before he would do the show. But when the camera started rolling, the tape set, and he would come out from behind the curtain, I was the last one to see him every day. So we saw each other every day, and I would cue him out. And then I'd have to deal with, you know, the out front thing, and I'm dealing with all the different talent and all the acts and whatever else we were doing, which was bizarre. And I don't know why, what they saw in me, you know, so far as that was concerned. When it came down to what the future had so far as being on camera's concerned, but the way I recall it happening was one day, David... when the announcer says, "Ladies and gentlemen, here's David Letterman," well he pushed me out, and I just walked down to the that mark on the floor, the cue cards were there and I started reading the jokes. Well, he came out and pushed me out the way too, you know? And he didn't even let me get through a joke hardly, but you know, 'cause it was going pretty good, I'm sure. And I never forget, as long as I live, someone, a reporter, and I've carried this with me ever since. A reporter or somebody saw that, and thought it was so great. It may have come a little later, because after that, one of the Writers, former Writers said that he was the first one that got me on camera. I don't remember, I always thought it was Dave's thing. And then they started using me in more and more skits. Dave's friend at the time and head Writer, Merrill Markoe, she must have thought something was funny, and these people were just writing stuff, and it didn't bother me, I was fine.

BH: And then I recall one day running into a reporter, a print reporter, and he asked me about being on camera [on THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW]. And he said to me, you know, “Doesn't that concern you about being on camera? Does it make you nervous?" And I looked at him, I said, "What is there to be nervous about when you don't know what you're doing?" It's that simple, you know? And so, "No, I'm not nervous." I said, "You know, scared of nothing." So it never really bothered me. You know, I didn't want to do things that would embarrass myself or my family or the show or anybody else, I wasn't going to do that. But a lot of people over the years have come up to me and it's really interesting because sometimes I don't know them, they don't know me. I mean they know me from television, and they're laughing at stuff, and I'm looking at them like, you know, "What is so funny?" And I can't, you know, "Tell me what it is that you are laughing about?" And sometimes they tell me some stories or things that they saw, I don't even remember doing, you know? And then other times, I do remember, and I have to ask them sometimes, "What did you... what made you laugh about that, you know, particularly?" And then other times people have said basically complimentary things and sometimes things like, "Oh, you know, Dave just makes you look like a fool." I say, "Well, I don't know about that," you know, I said, "I don't think he would do that, number one," 'cause he always had said to me, "If you don't want to do it, don't do it." You know? And you know, I said... That's what always came my way. And to be embarrassed or to be totally whatever it is I was talking about, I don't know. [INT: No, you weren't bothered by the skits. You enjoyed doing the skits.] Yeah, I enjoyed them. [INT: And there was like a trust level between you and David?] Between David and I? [INT: Yeah.] I hope so, yeah, I trusted him, that's for sure. And I feel like he trusted me. Yeah, 'cause I wasn't going to shortchange him or lie to him. I mean I know how this business is, and a lot of people have a tendency to say things, you know, sugarcoat. But you know, if I'm not asked, may not offer, but if it's something that I'm asked about, I'm gonna be honest about it, and I think he trusted me to that point. We literally have traveled around the world together, you know. I've... like I mentioned earlier, I'm a Vietnam veteran, but as a result of the show, I was in Bosnia twice, Afghanistan once, and Iraq twice with Dave and Paul [Paul Shaffer]. And Bosnia was... I was reporting from there, and these are places and things, some of the experiences I've had over the years that I got while I was at NBC, traveling all over the place, and then to hook up with... be blessed to be working with Dave for 30-something years, and the opportunities I had and the places I visited after that, I would have never done it…. and the money.

INT: Okay. So anyway, I think you know the value of a team, you know, the cohesiveness, so would you like to talk some about your working relationship with Hal Gurnee, Director, and some of the other members of the team? 

BH: Absolutely. I first met Hal on the morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW], and the... I think the initial Director, whatever, was moving on, and for whatever reason, and we came in on a Monday morning and Hal was there, and that's the first time I met him. Not knowing who he was or anything really about him, but it was an interesting day I recall vaguely, and we started doing the show live. And he impressed me right from the beginning because he was very low-key, wasn't any... lot of yelling, it was just like, "Let's get this, this is the way it's going to be done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever." And that went on. At the time I think the AD [Associate Director] on the show was Joyce Hurley who's a DGA member, and I think Pete Fatovich was the Associate Director; I think there were two. And Brian McAloon, who's also a Director now in the Guild, he was a PA on that. And myself and Jeff Samaha were the Stage Managers. And as a DGA team, I thought we worked well together, you know, so far as communicating with each other, making sure that everything from our aspect and responsibilities were definitely covered properly, and to assist in any other way would, from the technical and stagehands, 'cause I mean being on the floor, you're dealing with... stagehands are not walking around with headsets on, so they have no idea about what the Director wants. And the talent doesn't have a headset or an earpiece, so they don't know exactly either, so as the Stage Manager you're really the liaison between all of these folks, so it's a big responsibility, and that's where it is. I mean, you know, and Hal is... I just thought he was wonderful as a Director. I don't know how he felt about me, but I can tell you one thing that's, you know, he was great with me. I missed him when he left, but when Jerry Foley came in and took--he took over from Hal, Jerry was familiar because he was the Technical Director at the time.

INT: And working on that show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW], everything was live, what are some of the differences for you--[BH: We're talking the morning show? The morning show?] Yes, the morning show, yeah. Because before then, when you had worked on some of the other shows, some were taped, right, some live. Talk about the difference between a live show and a taped show. 

BH: Live show you can't stop. Tape you can stop and go back and do it again. Live is live. And what you see is what you get, I mean, you know, whether it's THE TODAY SHOW or a news show, sports, and all that, whereas with a soap opera you can go back and do it again. You can even do it with, you know, any type of taped show, you know, you can do that. That's the only difference I see between tape and live, I don't know, is there? Tell me. [INT: No, but as Stage Manager, you're sorta like the field general, especially on live, getting everything in order and...] Oh yeah, oh yeah. It's a lot of responsibility. You gotta stay concentrated not only on your hearing, but visually and everything. I mean I've made mistakes over the years on live shows. I remember doing the local news at NBC one day, and my good friend Enid Roth was directing the local news, and she... Marv Albert was the sports, and he was running his mouth and talking, and didn't want to shut up, and I could just about hear it from right on the other side of the wall her saying, "Cut him, cut him, cut him." And you know, I didn't mean to do what I did, but that's just the way it was, he didn't act like he saw me, so I stepped up on the stage and went like that. And the only thing I heard from the control room was, "I guess he saw that." And it was live, and it was true, and that's what happened. And you know, so whether it was a mistake--another time I was doing the news and I had a whole bunch of change in my pocket, and they said something about... it might have been THE TODAY SHOW, or either it was one of the news shows, and they said to me, and there was like a little lift right here from the floor to where the talent sat, and they said to me, "Cut him," and I kinda tripped in the process of trying to get to cut him, and all this change came flying out of my pocket. And the talent who was sitting there at the time said to me, "Don't they pay you more than that?" You know, and at this point, you know, whatever, you know, I was just having fun, you know, basically… I very rarely turned down an assignment; I didn't feel I was... I never felt secure 100 percent, I always felt like I had to do whatever I was asked within reason. I mean if I couldn't spend the whole day there, yeah, I couldn't do it. But I didn't like turning down assignments because I didn't know exactly what I would learn from this, you know. I never found two days in the business to be the same. There's nothing, there’s no day that is the same, which made it such an interesting job, you know? It was just never the same. [INT: Well I can totally agree with you on that one.]

INT: But just moving a little bit, I mean you're just such a wealth of anecdotes and useful information; it's great talking to you. But when David's morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW] was canceled, what were some of the things that you did then, career-wise? 

BH: In between? [INT: In between, yes.] Yeah, I think there was a three-year gap there. I did THE TODAY SHOW a lot, you know, different conventions. Well, that's only once every four years. But THE TODAY SHOW, everything, everything. Sports on the weekends, soap operas, variety shows, MISS AMERICA, you name it, space shuttles, all over the place. I did the first four space shuttles; I was there for the night launch. I was there for just a lot of them, which was exciting. And World Series, NBA--everything. Everything that you could possibly, I think, do in this business, you know, back then they would always send a Stage Manager out on a remote if it was a news flash at the last minute, and they had to go to Brooklyn or some place 'cause somebody, thank god it wasn't quite like it is today, all somebody getting shot, but you know, back then it was all, you know, pretty legitimate stories, and you go for that. And so a lot of that stuff. That was live, and that was good. I think, actually, television was just starting to get into a lot of live remotes, reporters out on the street.

INT: What was it like, you know, preparing for... 'cause there were so many different kinds of things, preparing like for a sports event or it's totally different, like from a major news event, or…? 

BH: Well, you know, a sports event... there was good and bad about it. We would, you know, you'd show up, for instance, a football game, depending on what your assignment was, if it was on the field, you know, you may have to prepare for live interviews prior to the game or whatever. And if you're in the booth, you're dealing with the direct talent, the play-by-play and the announcer. And you had cards for commercials together when they wanted to go to commercials. You know, kept everything intact all the way around so far as the assignment was concerned. You had to be there pretty early. One of the good sides about it, whether this is good or bad was the fact, I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but you didn't have to stay after the game was over to roll up cables and stuff. You could go home. I'm sorry, you know? And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to be a Stage Manager; I didn't want to do that dirty work. [INT: You didn't have to do the knock down on it, right?] Yeah, yeah, breaking it down. But you know, it was a lot, I mean I remember doing a lot of sporting events. I've been in some very, very strange situations over the years thanks to this business. You know, I was at the World Series when Reggie Jackson hit his three homeruns, didn't know what was happening. And since then I've had the opportunity through Dave [David Letterman] and the LATE SHOW [LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN] to follow the whole career of Derek Jeter, from beginning to end, to the day he ended. I was there every year just about. And basketball, I was there when the NBA finals, when Michael Jordan was having his reign. And boxing, I mean I've done fights with just about all the guys from that era.

INT: Anyway, I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the other shows before Letterman [LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN], like THE TODAY SHOW, what was that like? Live, early in the morning, with a Crew. 

BH: Early in the morning. Yeah, it was early in the morning. One Stage Manager would come in like at 11:30 at night, and was there overnight, and just coordinated and distributed scripts and everything, did the whole package. He was the main guy, Jim Straka [James Straka]. And the second person would come in around 04:30 or 05:00 in the morning, which was an hour and a half before the show started at 07:00, and that was basically for whatever rehearsals they had to do, music, whatever they had on the show that morning. And then it was live from 07:00 to 09:00 or whatever pre-tape, post-tapes or whatever they would have after, you may have to stay 'til 12:00 or 01:00, which was a lot sometimes. So it was one of those type of jobs where no trains were running, so you had to drive into the city, which means you were tired by the time you got ready to go home in my case, I didn't live in the city, in New York City. And so it was great, I was young, it was no problem, but it's a challenge. THE TODAY SHOW, I was there, you know, and then if there was a breaking news story, something big that happened, you may have to stay on air long after the nine o'clock hour until they got somebody in or whatever to carry for the rest of the day. So when, unfortunately, when the two popes died within the week or two, I was there both times for that. You know, and that was so interesting.

BH: You know, and over the years [on THE TODAY SHOW], so far as the Stage Manager's concern, I met so many... I remember this kid--I'm a Vietnam veteran like I told you before--God rest his soul, I don't remember his name, but the first kid that brought Agent Orange to the attention of the world, he was on, and I had been working the morning show for Letterman [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW] and doing THE TODAY SHOW, but THE LETTERMAN SHOW had ended and in between. So he was kinda half-familiar with who I was from having seen me, but he comes into THE TODAY SHOW making everybody aware in the world about Agent Orange, and they didn't want to hear nothing about that, you know. [INT: I remember.] Yeah, you remember that? Nobody wanted to hear anything about Agent Orange. And how I ended up in there that morning to meet this kid, you know, who died, I'm saying, "Here I'm meeting a guy... bringing Agent Orange to the world." Earlier in my life I had a chance to play tennis with Arthur Ashe who brings apartheid to the attention of the world, you know. And then it just kept dominoing with people of interest. I remember, I don't mean to sound like I'm jumping all over the place, but that's exactly what I'm doing, but I just remember doing Letterman's show [LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN] during the Gulf War, and at the end of that show that day, they sent me down on the third floor at NBC to work with Tom Brokaw, for who knew how long. And I saw a genius at work. I mean I literally did because that night he sat up there and he interviewed... he talked about war strategy, tank construction, he interviewed some generals, he talked about everybody in the world, and everything that could do with war. And didn't have any earpiece or no notes, you know. And Bernard Shaw, who worked for CNN at the time, I remember being there that night, was stuck in a hotel someplace, and he said the only person he would talk to was his friend Tom Brokaw. And I said, "This guy's a genius." So they cut away for a second of time, I said to him, I said, "Man, I gotta tell you something. This is genius man, what you're doing." I said, "You know, you're working without even notes." And he said, "Yeah Biff, and nobody at home knows it." I said, "Yeah, you're right." I said, "That's the unfortunate part about it." So I've had the opportunity to be around just pure divine, brilliant people. I've never seen anybody and I don't know if it was ever truly brought up, I think the majority of people who watched THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN realized it, but I've never seen anybody who could conduct an interview like he could. I mean he could really, he could conduct an interview. It was genius. [INT: Yeah.]

INT: So, anyway, during those intervening years, you still were very busy working-- 

BH: Oh absolutely. [INT: Yeah, all the time.] Thanks to NBC, with assignments. Don't forget, I mean, you know, it wasn't like I was freelancing, you know, out there hustling. They were actually assigning me the jobs. That was another blessing. [INT: Right. And I would also say another thing we're grateful to the Guild for, because you were staff by that point, you know, from the work that you had done there. But anyway, I digress.]

INT: We're now at the point like LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN is starting up again. So talk now, it's going to be taped as opposed to airing live, right? [BH: Right.] What's the process for you with that when getting back with the old--was it the same Crew from before? 

BH: Well, he did it. He did the show. Dave was totally in charge of this show. So he did the show just like it was live, you know, he did his hour, hour and five minutes or whatever it took, and that was the end of that. You know, that's the way he did it, I think for the whole time, unless something technically went wrong. Dave was... the hours were a little bit more reasonable, you know, compared to coming up early in the morning for a live show, not THE TODAY SHOW, but the morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW]. It was an hour or 48 minutes, or whatever it was, and did a whole lot of bizarre things, so it was a lot of moving around. There weren't always just two Stage Managers. We originally started out at the Ed Sullivan Theater with two, and had to go up to three, and sometimes we used up to five, depending on what was going on that day. We had something going on on 53rd Street; something was going on someplace else, 'cause he packed a lot of stuff into that one-hour, plus his monologue, music, and interviews. There was a lot going on on that show. It was busy. And it was great, you know… and if that answers your question? [INT: Well, yes and no.]

INT: I wanted to talk more about when you were still at NBC, though, with Letterman [David Letterman], because Ed Sullivan Theater was CBS, those were great years. [BH: Right.] But it kinda sounds like the show just kept its momentum, the continuity, you just changed networks. [BH: Oh you mean from the morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW] to the LATE...] Yeah, yeah. [BH: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.] Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the NBC years, LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN. 

BH: Oh I see, I see. Yeah, he was the... I feel like that show was being conducted as though it was live, because, you know, different things would happen. You know, I recall so many different things. But I remember once... I don't know exactly how much editing was done, I was not the AD [Associate Director], but I don't think much, because it would always run just to 60 minutes or close to an hour, and that was it. Now he, one day they wanted me to do the opening announce, okay? And so I got there with my voice, and I got over to the microphone, and I said, "It's the LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN, blah, blah, blah, and tonight Patty Duke," and whoever else was on the show, and I got everybody's name wrong. It was Patty from the insect museum in Washington, DC. I got everybody's name wrong. I did the whole thing--but I got through it, except just naming everything wrong. And so we went to commercial, and I went up to the desk and I said to Dave, I said, "I guess we have to do that again," he said, "Oh no, that was great." So I don't know what his intentions were, or maybe it was funny, whatever, if that's what he wanted, that's what he got. But the point I'm making is that he did it as though it was live. And I think he kept that going all the way through. I think in most cases the way he possibly looked at it was, you don't want to hold the audience too long, 'cause if you start doing it over and over again they may get, you may lose them. You know, I don't know if that was his mindset, but I also feel that you can't... people say, "Why didn't you all do that show live?" I said, "I have no idea why he didn't want to do the show live, but I would think that possibly you'd have the same people in the audience every night. Nobody's gonna come in here at 11:30 at night to sit here and watch a television show." You're gonna have the same homeless people, you know, well, same people every night, you know. But you know, I don't know what the mindset was, but I thought it was, you know, that's the way it should be. But he only did that one hour. People would request tickets and say, "I got tickets for the show tonight," or whatever, "How long does it take?" I said, "You won't be there any more than about an hour. Hour, 10 minutes, top 15, it's not gonna last long." You'll be there a little longer 'cause of the warm-up. You know, and 'cause the band would warm up, they had to get the audience in and all that, which we didn't deal with directly, we only dealt with the actual show. [INT: Right.]

INT: So knowing that it was just going to be like that one, go through as if it were live, how did you work, you know, with the talent [on LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN or LATE NIGTH WITH DAVID LETTERMAN], ‘cause you saw them like right before they were going on with Dave. [BH: Oh, you mean the guest?] With the guests on the show, yeah. Did you have to calm any nerves or kinda, you know, reassure them that everything's gonna be fine? 

BH: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh, there are a lot of egos coming through the door, yes absolutely. Insecurities, egos, all that stuff. And you know, I've always looked at humans as humans, that's all we are. You know, it's serious, it's work, but your guest, you know, even though you're bringing something to the table--that's the way I looked at it to a degree. I remember a certain person one night was telling me before he went on that... his attitude was, "Yeah, I'm here, but this is my show, this is my segment this time." And I'm looking at him and say, "I don't think so," you know, I said, "You know, you need to go out there, sit down, have some fun, but don't think that you're in charge here. He's in charge. This is his show. His name is up on the marquee, not yours. Not yet anyway,” you know, whatever. And I remember different... first of all, half of these folks that came through there, when I became a certain age, I had no idea who they were anyway. I had no clue who these people were. You know, they didn't mean anything to me. That's what happened with Justin Bieber. He comes through, and he's standing there, and they wanted him to do a pre-tape or something. And I'm standing there right next to him, and somebody... I knew the guy that was with him from other places, and so I said, "Listen, I gotta go get this guy Justin Bieber, 'cause we need to do this pre-tape." So the guy said, "He's right here." And I looked at him and I said, "What can you do, man?" You know? "What are you gonna..." I had no idea what he was gonna do. I didn’t know he was a--I didn't know who he was. He meant nothing to me. You know, and I'm happy for him, but I just didn't know. Well, every time he came from that point on, he knew, he looked at me like, "Well this man doesn't know who I am and doesn’t really care." I mean I was doing a remote one time for Letterman at a Super Bowl… This stuff's just popping in my head, I'm trying. [INT: It's fine.] Okay. I was doing a Super Bowl and NSYNC was a big deal, okay? Now, I don't have a clue as to who these kids are. They didn't mean nothing to me. I did--they wanted to use them, the Writer wanted to use them in a skit, so they, "Yeah, we'll do it," and they do it. And at the end of it, somebody said something to me, "Biff, you want a picture with NSYNC?" And I said, "Well if they want to." They didn't mean nothing to me. He just thought it was the greatest thing, but I didn't know who they were. They didn't mean anything--you know, not that they didn't mean... So I mean a lot of these kids, okay, people that came to the door, you know, the egos had to be dropped. I understood the security, but then you had people that came through like Denzel Washington or Tom Hanks or Julia Roberts and LeBron James, all of 'em, and there was no ego. You know, they weren't... it was no big deal. You know, George Clooney. It goes on and on.